Dunblane Massacre Resource Page

It's always important for victim disarmers that they seize the moral high ground because, in fact, their desire to deny fundamental human rights to self defence, property, self determination, and personal responsibility, are very much not on the moral high ground if you take the trouble to think things through.

It is always the plea of tyranny that the oppression and denial of human rights is being done, "for your own good."

YouTube is one of the many new media channels breaking the hegemony of the heavily propaganda oriented and controlled mainstream media. And doubtless "for the children" censorship of the internet will continue to ramp up to circumscribe our freedom of speech. (YouTube is, of course, heavily censored but it's proving difficult for the "authorities" to moderate the comments sections.)

What needs to be done is to world-proof the children, not child-proof the world. Life is about personal responsibility and making the right choice. Infantilizing adults and children by denying them personal responsibility "for the children" is the worst possible environment for everybody - except the gangsters in the political class… see also, Dunblane Unburied.

Johnny <johnny@dvc.org.uk>

(2009-05-11) A correspondent suggests that this is the YouTube video referred to:: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf9-MkLXxfs
For what I think is "the way" see, Gun Law for the 21st Century. http://dvc.org.uk/dunblane/gunlaw.html

Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 15:20:34 +0100
From: David Wainwright
To: johnny@dvc.org.uk
Subject: Dunblane Page

Hi Johnny

I just found your Dunblane Massacre Resource page, most interesting.

I had been viewing YouTube clips of The Hungerford Massacre in which my father was killed and mother severely wounded.

The gun lobby seem to waste no opportunity to promote their changing and relaxing of the gun laws and even post comments on YouTube clips to suit their ends.

My response is always that, both Michael Ryan in Hungerford and Thomas Hamilton in Dunblane were licensed members of gun clubs where they both honed their marksmanship skills and that since gun laws were tightened after the Dunblane massacre there hasn't been another gun massacre in the UK.

sincerely
David Wainwright
Hungerford

Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 20:16:25 +0100 (BST)
From: John Pate
To: David Wainwright
Subject: Re: Dunblane Page

You should note I am not a member of some kind of "gun lobby" I am an individual who works on this entirely on his own. Had you bothered to read anything much of what I have written you would have noticed I'm very scathing about the target shooting / sport shooting crowd in this country. I in fact believe, and I'm sure I've made clear in my writings, that if weapons are kept for purely "sporting purposes" they are a liability rather than a useful tool. My right to own weapons is for self defence, target shooting is merely an adjunct to that. (I always started my weapons training lessons in the army with something along the lines of, "The purpose of this instruction is to teach you how to use the weapon to kill the enemy to defend your own life and that of your comrades and to complete your mission." I'm very clear about what firearms are for.)

I reject utterly your implication that the fact your father was killed and your mother was wounded in the Hungerford atrocity gives you the right to deny me my right to self defence.

In fact, you are only able to deny me my right to arms and to self defence because men with guns stand ready to kill me if I attempt to assert those rights. I find your attitude hypocritical.

If you you have any further questions or comments please feel free to email again.

The only true method of selecting a superior is with an eating
competition, in my own completely unhumble opinion. The winner
is the one who eats everyone else.

--
John Pate <johnny@dvc.org.uk>
Edinburgh, Scotland (home PC)
Disclaimer: I've probably changed my opinions by the time you read this
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 22:37:11 +0100
From: David Wainwright
To: johnny@dvc.org.uk
Subject: Re: Dunblane Page

Johnny

Thanks for your response,

Firstly I salute you for being an individual, who is able to articulate his position and whose research is well balanced and in depth.

My father was a Gunner, Royal Artillery 1939-1946, in my opinion he died a warriors death, clean and quick, the way a true warrior should die, he was 67 years old and had lived his life, he raised four sons and a daughter and had always expressed the opinion that every day was a bonus after the action he had seen in operation Market Garden and subsequent operations in the liberation of Europe.

My mother's experience of The Hungerford massacre and its aftermath was an entirely different situation.

I understand that you think that I became involved in restricting your right to bear arms due to my fathers death and mothers injuries (both physical and emotional), this is not the case. I only lent my voice, hand and power to this argument after the further massacre, of children the same age as my mothers grandchildren, at the hands of Thomas Hamilton in Dunblane.

I make no apology for this, I have no objection to trained professionals such as yourself, who know what weapons are and their purpose, from using them legitimately in the course of their profession, however you surprise me that you think it necessary to require them for self defensive purpose . From my own point of view, I view all weapons of every description as "offensive," and have never felt the need nor necessity to own or carry any, of any description, ever.

Perhaps this is down to my parents and the wish that their children grow up in a world of Peace, after their experiences between 1939 and 1945 and their parents experiences between 1914 and 1918, one of my grandfathers was at Passchendaele and The Somme. My Father saw action namely at Nijmegen.

I am aware of the profusion of illicit weapons in this country and to a certain extent, I am aware of how they come to be here.

I am sorry that you feel less secure without a firearm to protect you and with which to defend yourself, and that you feel that your civil liberties are impeded, however my opinion is, that I should rather there be no guns at all, and dare to upset a principled man and warrior such as yourself, than to see another child's life ended in such a manner as happened in Dunblane, had more stringent gun controls been brought in after the Hungerford experience, those children would still be alive and 17-18 years of age, no doubt giving their parents much angst and delight.

It is my certain knowledge from the experiences encountered by my family, that all men are capable of losing it, when the man concerned has access to weapons, the results can be and are catastrophic.

It is not, nor has it ever been my contention to deny you or anyone else your rights, it is however I feel my responsibility to voice my opinion and point of view and to put my power behind it, as you so do and most succinctly.

Respectfully
David

Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 10:45:49 +0100 (BST)
From: John Pate
To: David Wainwright
Subject: Re: Dunblane Page

Thank you for your thoughtful and courteous reply (a refreshing change from the customary stance of the typical victim disarmament proponent). Please note I will be publishing our exchange on my website, drop me a line to let me know whether or not you have a preference as to whether your name and/or email address is/are redacted.

Clearly we're going to have to agree to disagree on this. I think you are wrong as a matter of fact on various points, however.

We can't say that another massacre of school children, by some manner or another, will or won't happen. What might have happened, in hindsight, over the particular incident at Dunblane involving that particular person could be hashed over endlessly - and fruitlessly. I note for instance this recent news item:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6201863.ece

Consider this list:
http://listverse.com/miscellaneous/top-10-worst-school-massacres/
It is interesting to note that the incident that takes number two does not involve guns. And number one is an incident of terrorism - the Israelis deal with that sort of thing by arming their teachers.

Most children in the world who die prematurely die from drinking contaminated water. The efforts to correct that appear IMHO (In My Humble Opinion) to be rather half-hearted (at best) and I tend take the, "for the children" argument with a great measure of scepticism.

I hope all ordinary people wish for peace. I personally think British soldiers should not be in Iraq or Afghanistan. I reflect, sadly, that the steps towards peace that I would like to see - the dismantling and destruction of Britain's nuclear weapons and the disbandment of our standing military forces to be replaced by a citizen militia - are entirely utopian in the current political context.

As a matter of fact, I am being denied my fundamental human (and Constitutional right) to self defence. When all is said and done, your own personal safety - and that of your loved ones - is your personal responsibility and not anyone else's. The choices you (or your father) choose to make are yours to decide for you alone. What I object is others choosing mine for me.

I think we can both agree that if the governments of the world spent less money on guns and bombs the world would be a better place. However, there is much truth in the old adage that you must prepare for war to provide peace. Further, I put it to you, most assuredly history demonstrates to us that political power grows from the barrel of a gun and the last thing we should accept is for the government to have all the guns.

There are evil men out there and they can only be restrained by violence. If the day truly does come that that the lion shall lay down with the lamb… well I don't expect to be here to see that, for sure.

This is the dark world of Auschwitz which, as we know,
was run as a joint-stock company by scientists, doctors,
and corporate industrialists.

Dunblane Massacre Resource Page

For the Children